Heck, this might even be the most disturbing for the decade. Within the last 50 years, there have been state and church sponsored mass graves in Canada. Top story? Not so much. I guess racism is alive and well in this country (sadly).
{ 2008 04 16 }
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John Murney | 17-Apr-08 at 1:39 am | Permalink
That’s more than a little disturbing.
Louise | 17-Apr-08 at 7:31 am | Permalink
It’s also very old news. There was some doctor, whose name I can’t remember, who was hired way back in the 1910s to investigate and report on this. Seems the Department of Indian Affairs had a hard time convincing parents to send their kids to school so hiding the fact that many of them died while in the residential schools seemed like a necessity at the time. A lot of the kids died of tuberculosis, which was rampant among that segment of the population at that time.
If you know about TB, at that time especially, it was a slowly developing disease for which there really wasn’t much of a cure. It took many people who weren’t anywhere near the schools, as well, both adults and children. In fact, orphaned children were often sent to the schools because they had no one to look after them.
The disease also killed a lot of non-Aboriginal people as well. You might be familiar with the Fort San, in the Qu’Appelle Valley near Fort. Qu’Appelle. It’s original purpose was to serve as a TB sanitorium (treatment centre).
A very sad chapter in our history, to be sure, but I think leftards are always gleeful when they think they’ve discovered some “deep dark hidden” secret, strip it of all nuance and then use it to roar from the mountain tops a hundred years after the fact. They are sooo morally superior and the society they live in is sooo evil. I’ve got news for them. This is not a newly discovered “scandal” and it’s been written about in academia, among other places, over and over again.
themusicgod1 | 17-Apr-08 at 2:03 pm | Permalink
Louise;
1) I have never heard of any of the things that you’re talking about. I’m guessing you’re quite a bit older than me or something? This chapter of canadian history should be readily known, and if it isn’t, then information about it needs to be spread around. Especially since it was fairly recent, and widespread.
2) The whole point of posting it is so that people like you can then bring the nuance in. Sure, not everyone appreciates it; but some of us do.
3) You bet I consider myself morally superior to my grandparents(one of whom is dying right now, the other may as well), who are the closest thing to me implicated in this–they would have been alive and able to know about it, at the very least, at the time. What would they have thought? “Good riddance…less Indians. I hope TB wipes them all out”, in my experience. They relish the idea of “hunting indians” for sport*, and clearing out the province for the white man to colonize or whatever.
I think they were absolutely barbaric, and for good cause. I know full well that there are mechanisms of society that make their uncivil attitude look tame(guantanamo/tranquility bay, chinese water mismanagement, bhopal and closer to home, the iraq war) but I fail to see reasons why we can’t try to make our society less evil(since by and large, people in their generation still maintain their hold on the steering wheels of power), or if we utterly fail to do that(due to the evil being too deeply embedded), to at least publicly express our distaste at the situation.
Lastly; speaking as someone who’s been living in the ivory tower for quite a few years now, academia tends to have erected large obstacles between it’s knowledge and the people who could benefit by knowing it. One strategy for this is colloquially called “profiting from intellectual property”, but I’m sure you can think of others — not everyone knows everything that you know, and if you’re expecting us all to have access to (non-open-access) journals discussing the matter you’re very confused about what most of us will likely encounter. Again, coming from someone who browses arxiv for pleasure.
*(not unlike some albertans I’ve met…I guess alberta is just 50 years behind the rest of us)
JJ | 17-Apr-08 at 4:19 pm | Permalink
Louise said: “It’s also very old news.”
Well then, I must be very old because I personally know people who went through the residential school system, people my age.
I only hope your breathtaking ignorance can be blamed on stupidity and not malevolence.
Louise | 17-Apr-08 at 6:39 pm | Permalink
My darlings JJ and Music God, where shall I begin?
First of all, I would ask the God of Music (I like your handle, by the way), what do you define as “fairly recent, and widespread”? The blog that Saskboy links to employs a quaint little trick with respect to dates, which I picked up on right away. You will notice in the first section it makes reference to the burial of a young Inuit child in 1953 at an Edmonton residential school. That’s more than half a century ago.
In the second section there is a list of residential schools showing the date of their establishment and the date at which they were closed. Most of them, as you can see, were established in the late 1800s. No surprise there. That’s when most of them got going both in Canada and the US.
You’ll also notice that most of them closed in the early 1970, with several having a closure date in the 1960s. Only one or two closed in the 1980s. I think 1984 is the latest date. You can check it out if you want to prove me wrong. In any case, these dates may lead the average reader to believe that this practice of burying dead school children on the grounds of these schools, and keeping the news of their passing a secret was current right up until the closing of the school, but nowhere does it actually say that. And there’s a reason why it doesn’t.
Since I do know a lot about this subject, I can tell you that it is highly unlikely that the practice continued much beyond the very early 1950s and even then, it would have been very, very rare. The big hey-day of residential schools that we all hear about, where children were forceably taken from their parents and given very inferior, and in some cases, brutal, education began in the late 1870s and was pretty well dead by the time WWII was over. The era of dead kids being secretly buried during this time span is well documented, especially in the earlier part of era.
The big thing in Indian education in the 1950s was integration with schools in nearby non-native communities, where geographic proximity allowed. This is still the case in many areas, although Indian control of Indian education came into being in the early 1970s and is now pretty well universal. If you can find it in some university library (the U of S used to have it, and maybe they still do), you might want to read through the proceedings of a Joint Senate-House of Commons Committee struck in 1948 or thereabouts dealing with the subject of Indian education. The move to day schools on reserves and to integration with nearby schools in towns resulted from that committee which sat for two or three years. (It’s been quite a few years since I consulted that source myself, so I may be wrong about how long it lasted.) They took submissions, both written and in person from Indian people, bands and organizations all across the country. Many of those submissions and testaments supported the move to integration with provincially controlled schools in the nearby towns.
Secondly, residential schools continued much beyond the dates in which those schools closed and Indian Affairs and the churches continued to operate them in the 1950s and 1960s for children who’s homes were too far away from nearby provincially run schools. In the 1970s the Department of Indian Affairs and the Churches turned over the administration of those schools to Indian organizations, including local bands, ie. Indian control. So unless you think that the continuation of the missionary zeal that characterized residential school experience from the 1870s to WWII was recommended by the Indians themselves in the 1940s, and endorsed by them as they took control of their own schools right up until the 1980s (which, of course, would be a ludicrous assumption) I think it’s safe to say that that Inuit child was one of the last such victims, which means I must ask, is the last full half century something we can just gloss over in order to preserve the purity of the leftwing view of the world?
I’m sorry you came from such bigoted ancestral stock, Music God, but perhaps you need to ask yourself how such an experience may have coloured your own perception of the world. May I suggest that perhaps you are reading into my words something that isn’t there simply because you yourself have a wounded heart.
And to JJ, I hope you will see by now that the “breathtaking ignorance” and the “stupidity” and perhaps even the “malevolence” may reside not in my words, but in you, the reader of my words. Lefties do have a marvelous propensity for reading between the lines and “discovering” what isn’t there.
Louise | 17-Apr-08 at 6:51 pm | Permalink
And by the way, Music God, I lived in Alberta for seven years. They are way more advanced in their thinking than most Saskies. I’m born and bred Saskie and I know both cultures. You must remember that a large number of people currently living in Alberta used to live in Saskatchewan or have parents or grandparents who live here. Your portrayal of Albertans is more than mildly bigoted. I would say, physician heal thyself.
Saskboy | 17-Apr-08 at 7:11 pm | Permalink
Let’s not go righty/lefty/Albertan on this issue. This is a Canadian disgrace, in modern times
“I think 1984 is the latest date.”
So with the exception perhaps of Huffb1, most of my blog commenters were alive and talking at that stage in their life. Certainly not all of us were in a position to stop it, but it’s not ancient history we can just say is resolved because payouts for beatings/abuse/kidnapping have been made recently. Have the bodies been identified and families properly notified? TB is an interesting, and likely theory, yet still these are unmarked graves with presumably little or no historical records listing cause of death or family who may wonder what happened to their children.
Louise | 17-Apr-08 at 8:13 pm | Permalink
“Certainly not all of us were in a position to stop it, ..”
Saskboy, you fell for it again. The date the schools closed has nothing to do with what went on in them 75 years earlier. Unless you can show (and believe me, you won’t be able to) that children attending those schools in the 1970s and early 1980s were dying in great numbers,and, unbeknownst to their parents, were being buried on the school grounds, right up until they were closed, you have no case.
The site you link to wants you to believe that. That’s why they list the opening and closing dates of each of the schools. The residential school era lasted well over a hundred years. They want you to believe that what happened at the beginning of that era continued right to the end. Now, if you want to talk about sexual and other types of abuse, you’re closer to being correct, but the “mass” graves era was over long, long before that.
If you want to do history you have to pay attention to the sequence in which events occur, otherwise, your theories will be blown to bits. Lefties don’t tend to recognize that little bit of essential historiographic methodology and that’s how they manage to brainwash the neophytes who haven’t done their own research.
Go spend some times at the National Archives in Ottawa and sift through the historical records. Travel up the the U of S and read the multi-volume proceedings of the hearings held in 1948 or whatever it was. Spend a lifetime studying the history of Indian-White relations in Canada. Then, when you and I are somewhere close to an equal footing, you can challenge me to a dual on this subject and you might have a fighting chance.
Saskboy | 17-Apr-08 at 8:25 pm | Permalink
“Saskboy, you fell for it again. The date the schools closed has nothing to do with what went on in them 75 years earlier. Unless you can show (and believe me, you won’t be able to) that children attending those schools in the 1970s and early 1980s were dying in great numbers,”
Without an investigation we DON’T know that Louise. We can determine when the bodies are from, and thus how long they were being hidden. It’s pretty hard to deny that if white kids from the 1970s had possibly been murdered and buried at their boarding school, and it came to light in 2008, there’d be a national outcry, and it would be on the front page of every paper!
filcher | 17-Apr-08 at 9:15 pm | Permalink
“Without an investigation we DON’T know that Louise. We can determine when the bodies are from, and thus how long they were being hidden. ”
I feel I must point out that none of these mass graves have actually been found and inspected by authorities, or am I missing something? And while I shudder to defend one who has used the term ‘lefttard’ there are reasonable excuses for why there may be bodies buried without notification of next of kin. The aboriginal peoples in my area do take several week long sojourns in the bush without informing others of their intent; it could be that there was a health reason the body must be buried, and a clerical mistake the family not notified.
“It’s pretty hard to deny that if white kids from the 1970s had possibly been murdered and buried at their boarding school, and it came to light in 2008, there’d be a national outcry, and it would be on the front page of every paper!”
Again, like Louise says, there is no claim advanced by the FRD these deaths occurred in the last part of the century, just a listing of when the schools opened and closed. It does not excuse the failure to investigate the actions of the schools by authorities at the time, but it does not mean the deaths were done throughout the ’50’s, 60’s and 70’s.
I wonder about the allegations of a electric chair in Fort Albany. Is this even plausible in this community, during the time frame? What year did the residential school get hydroelectric power?
Louise | 17-Apr-08 at 9:24 pm | Permalink
Saskboy, you’re grasping at straws. You weren’t there. I was. The modern Indian movement was in full swing in the 1980s. Indian Control of Indian Education was a primary mover of activism at that time. In fact, it has calmed down considerably since then. If this had happened in the 1970s and 1980s you better believe we would have heard about it.
Louise | 17-Apr-08 at 9:57 pm | Permalink
“It does not excuse the failure to investigate the actions of the schools by authorities at the time, ”
Me thinks there are no historians posting here. Go to the archives in Ottawa. Go to the various church archives. The documentation is there. The doctor whose name I can’t remember that I mentioned in my first post on this thread was hired to do precisely that. On top of that, real historians have been digging up the records and writing books and journal articles about these schools for 35 to 40 years now, or more.
Since the release of the document “Indian Control of Indian Education” by the National Indian Brotherhood (predecessor of the Assembly of First Nations) in the early 1970s, huge amounts of money have been channeled into developing band controlled schools and the capacity of bands to run those schools. Most residential schools in Canada from that point on were run by Indian people themselves.
The notion that children were dying in these schools throughout the 1960s, 70s and 80s, and is still, today, some well kept secret is complete and utter nonsense. Those that engage in such fantasies are indeed leftards. That’s a word I have carefully chosen for its pinpoint accuracy.
Louise | 17-Apr-08 at 10:21 pm | Permalink
I might also add that the use of the words “mass graves” and “genocide” in these pieces is a propaganda technique used by the writers of the articles. It doesn’t mean there really are mass graves. Many of these school will have had a cemetery which has since grown over and may now be unmarked, but that does not make it a “mass grave” ala a modern day tyrant such as Saddam Hussein or Joseph Stalin would have littered the landscape with. You really must sharpen up your BS detectors, Saskboy. They are letting too much by.
themusicgod1 | 18-Apr-08 at 4:24 am | Permalink
louise:
I’ll admit that you may have something there; the fact that the people closest to me in my life so far have mostly been bigoted that my experience may be making my perception of the rest of the people of saskatchewan/alberta/canada tilted. Especially Alberta — although I have worked a few months there, my exposure to the general population there is relatively limited to a very biased and right-wing/authoritarian/bigoted sample, and although it really did seem like the worst parts of saskatchewan(with cooler storms), I wonder how I can remedy this…get out more perhaps? I don’t think simply giving people the benefit of the doubt will help much; I’ve just been burned too many times(and seen others burned) for that.
I must also admit, looking at lorne calvert (who seemed ancient when he was first elected, which seems like almost forever ago), having been born just barely before this stuff happened, maybe 50 years is quite a ways away, and the events *before* that that are pertinent here even moreso.
Saskboy; you’ll probably have to place me in the ‘not talking’ bin for 1984. I would have been just over a year old at that point — I don’t know how much cognition was really going on at that stage but it couldn’t be much. (coincidentally, it would be about the same level as Calvert, as a generic example of his generation, had when the last child in question was buried).
“You really must sharpen up your BS detectors, Saskboy. They are letting too much by.” I think that’s really the crux here — I think a lot of the filters we’ve got here are failing, since this is a comparatively obscure(and yet somewhat important) topic. I’m only speaking for myself here, but I’m really out of my depths on this issue. I really do need to learn more about this.
And yet how would I ever have learned this without *both* of you, Saskboy/Louise? So much for “leftard” “brainwashing” being harmful, in the long run, I guess.
themusicgod1 | 18-Apr-08 at 4:26 am | Permalink
“and although it really did seem like the worst parts of saskatchewan(with cooler storms)…”
Hmm…that part made no sense. Non sequitur FTW. Disregard.
Louise | 18-Apr-08 at 6:07 am | Permalink
Good morning, Music God. I actually taught in the first Band controlled school in Saskatchewan way back in 1974. Shortly after that, the second band controlled school opened up (David Ahenakew’s home reserve, BTW). Saskatchewan First Nations were leading the way, so to speak, and the whole Indian movement rapidly became extremely radical, especially in Saskatchewan.
The Indian movement drew its inspiration partly from the decolonization movement in the former European empires, which had happened in the 1950s and 60s. There was a significant shift in European/Western thinking following WWII, which included the notion that empire building was bad and that formerly colonized people were owed justice. That wasn’t the case prior to WWII.
The article linked in Saskboy’s entry reminds me of the radical lingo that was used during that decolonization era and the use of that language by native organizations in Canada in the 1970s up to the present, in some cases. Every little slight or error from centuries ago right up to the then present was interpreted as racism and genocide.
You might know that there is a rather broad definition of the word genocide recognized in international law, which includes forceful removal of children from their parents. That particular part of the definition has been used over and over and over by radical Indian groups as they vent their anger.
Trouble is, as a crime, “genocide” as had very little success in being prosecuted in a court, and where there has been success, it has been limited to the more commonly accepted definition, namely mass and deliberate extermination of an identifiable group meant to eliminate them (the Jews in Hitler’s Germany, the Stalinest era in the Soviet Union, the Pol Pot era in Cambodia, etc.). It’s certainly no laughing matter, but to suggest that anything of the sort actually happened in Canada is to admit to having an profoundly uninformed, and I may even say, brainwashed, mindset. Like the word “racism”, the word “genocide” has been so overly and lightly used that is has become almost meaningless.
And as a point of international law, I would suspect that charging anyone, let alone convicting them, with a violation of a law that didn’t come into existence until a long time after the alleged crime was committed would not fly.
Louise | 18-Apr-08 at 6:19 am | Permalink
Something is screwing up. I just composed a long and hopefully thoughtful response to you, Music God, then sent it off but it hasn’t appeared. Maybe Saskboy has banned me. Oh well. I saved it, so maybe I’ll try later.
Louise | 18-Apr-08 at 6:20 am | Permalink
Well, I guess he didn’t ban me. Must be flakey software.
Louise | 18-Apr-08 at 7:54 am | Permalink
Hey, Music God, I just clicked on you name and visited your website. Are you by chance a computer science student with a philosophy background? If so, I should introduce you to my son.
Saskboy | 18-Apr-08 at 8:16 am | Permalink
Louise, Akismet (spam filter) didn’t like you, possibly for more than one link in the post. They didn’t notify you that your comment had been put in the spam list? It didn’t even go to moderation unfortunately. But I found it in the filter (was still on the first page of dozens, and recovered it. I’ have over 7000 spam the last week, and there’s no good way of going through Akismet’s filter. It’s a weak point about WordPress.
Louise | 18-Apr-08 at 11:22 am | Permalink
Thanks, Saskboy. I do like you, you know. (Maybe that’s not good news ;)) Even though I get into some great sparring matches with you, you always take it like a man, which is good.
Louise | 18-Apr-08 at 1:17 pm | Permalink
Oh, and btw, there was no notification.
themusicgod1 | 18-Apr-08 at 3:38 pm | Permalink
lol. Yes indeed, I am a computer science major, and while on paper I’m minoring in philosophy, I just have a casual interest in it at this point. (but you should tell your son to join #philosophy on irc.new-wave.net / othersideIRC network and join the whole bunch of us ;) )
Saskboy | 19-Apr-08 at 12:44 am | Permalink
Sorry to hear it doesn’t notify the commenter that they’ve been filtered. That’s why I have a note above the comment box though in case of trouble.
granny | 19-Apr-08 at 8:56 am | Permalink
I see ‘Louise’ pretends to expertise in these matters, but has no evidence, only speculation.
I agree with the other posters who believe there should be a full investigation. However, since the RCMP were the enforcers of mandatory attendance at the schools, and chased children down when they escaped, they are hardly qualified to investigate: They have things to hide themselves.
Indigenous Elders are forming their own Tribunal, with international assistance, to conduct an investigation. For more information and to get put on the mailing list of the Friends of the Disappeared Children, email hiddenfromhistory@yahoo.ca
[email fixed]
Louise | 19-Apr-08 at 11:31 am | Permalink
Yes, I know, Granny. I read the article. From the sounds of it, it’s guaranteed to be a kangaroo court comedy. Again, the reference to a scenario that existed from the early part of the previous century (the compulsory attendance as articulated in an 1884 amendment to the Indian Act and enforced by the police). That clause was removed from the Indian Act in 1951.
Here’s an indictment of those schools during the era that I’m talking about. Note the reference to unhealthy conditions in the buildings and tuberculosis.
The residential school thing « rjjago.wordpress.com | 21-Apr-08 at 12:27 am | Permalink
[...] self-centred bigots just now learned of this crime from a press release. Every single one of you should be ashamed of yourselves for not having known this long [...]
Rhonda | 23-Apr-08 at 1:27 pm | Permalink
Granny said:
“For more information and to get put on the mailing list of the Friends of the Disappeared Children, email hiddenfromhistory@yahoo.com”
Sorry, that should be hiddenfromhistory@yahoo.ca for the national group, FRDToronto@yahoo.ca for the Toronto group.
And, regardless of whether the deaths happened 25 or 100 years ago, shouldn’t they be investigated? That’s all we want.
Saskboy | 23-Apr-08 at 11:44 pm | Permalink
That’s right, and it’s not like people who were in charge back then wouldn’t still be alive and punish if they are found to have acted improperly.
cubbycab | 02-May-08 at 11:24 am | Permalink
My mother and father and I myself were victims of kidnapping and forced enslavement in these government institutions. While I did know a few who committed suicide because of their inflicted trauma I cannot say I ever witnessed murder. However- I myself had my leg broken as a toddler- i was about 6 or 7 - and I never saw a doctor. I just spent a summer crying and not walking much or playing much either. Eventually the leg healed and years later I saw the proof of the damage and the extent of the damage in an X ray for a sprained ankle decades later. I’m in my 40’s now. My mother drank herself to death and my father, brother and most all my aunts and uncles are killing themselves with drinking or smoking crack. Another sister was murdered just last summer and one brother was murdered about 10 years ago. Both killed by other natives who had snapped in their rage and pain and addiction. I consider my being Native a good thing- genetically- but I also consider being a targeted human by the master race here in Canada as my life long sentence of cruelty and misery- its not the Natives’ fault - all this pain, despair, and death- its the fault of the aggressors and the masters of this country- the WASPs or the whites or the elites or whoever was responsible for this genocide- all I really know for sure- I never wanted this for myself and my family - I never choose or worked towards their suffering. I never choose to feel 40 years of pain nor do I believe just because I was born into a Native family and am a native- I will never believe I deserved any of the torture I have endured and continue to endure to this day. Natives want good things for themselves and their families just like anybody else. Even Indians don”t want to be exterminated, experimented on, and tortured and abused. In fact- all over the world regardless of race, color, religion, blah blah blah- nobody wants genocide. And its not old news- its happening today all over Canada to every Native in this country. And if anyone has any doubts just open your eyes and even straight out ask-”" Hey- how do you feel about Natives? ” and then ask “WHY DO YOU THINK THAT?” A problem can’t be solved until its actually defined. Racism is the responsibility of the racist.
No Truth, No Reconciliation « rjjago.wordpress.com | 06-May-08 at 1:21 am | Permalink
[...] self-centred bigots just now learned of this crime from a press release. Every single one of you should be ashamed of yourselves for not having known this long [...]